September 19, 2010 11:59 amKaren, I think outsiders looking upon Scientology even before the current stable period of David Miscavige discarding virtually all persons, around and beneath him, over the decades, I think that some research into the longevity of the leaders in positions ought be done.
My first unjust removal was when Jon Horwich, bless him in many ways, decided he would have me replaced as the senior course sup in the admin area at the FLB, back in the summer of 1981.
He commented to me that LRH would have had me removed FAR earlier.
Me personally, my time had come, I had been on post in the admin course sup area since 1977, and my time to get the ax was decided, NOT by a David Miscavige, but because I believe already, LRH had set the mold for this rather quick replacement fad for positions, already, for the first decade of the Sea Org.
I witnessed all during my earliest years in the Sea Org, a rather heartless replacement attitude for the top executive positions.
In 1979ish, or 1980ish, I had Dianna Hubbard Horwich as a sometimes student on the OEC, again BEFORE DM’s reign. I thus got a number of opportunities to chat with Dianna about her opinions, while giving her spot checks on her materials, etc.
In one conversation, she mentioned that one of the problems was that no one wanted to BE the senior executive positions, because the senior positions looked like guaranteed targets for being blamed, and getting shot off post.
That certainly rung true, since the parade of people who held the CO FSO post from the time I joined the FSO, Dec 75, until I left the FSO to move into the Flag Bu (and into the Exec College course room under Linda McCarthy and under Al Baker who mentored me), I had seen at least 4 Commanding Officers FSO come and go: Tony Dunleavy, Bill Robertson, Greg Wilhere, Carl Carlson, and Brian Patrick for a tiny stretch, and Frannie Harris (Freedman), and I forget who else.
This was 7 different Commanding Officers for the FSO in less than 5 years.
No, I think there is an inclination, like everyone else had stated, and I think honestly, there is, like Dianna said, a longer deeper trend in Scientology history of a more rapid volitile turnover for the top people.
Agreed, like the Dane Tops writeup of 1982 ish (Dane is a fake name for some Scientology public, who themselves I think is a bit of a UFO nutter today, look at his 2009 interview by a conspiratorial UFO alien cloning cult that thinks the Illuminati are controlling world events, Dane’s thus pretty off in the bigger picture in my opinion thus), but Dane’s famous or somewhat forgotten writeup of the actual period PRIOR to DM taking power, I think is important.
The history of this getting rid of good people, LRH did it. A lot of people were unjustly canned by LRH.
He set the mold for the relatively FAST turnover of the top top managers.
DM’s trashed the whole mess, and I think Dane’s opinions in his 1982 writeup are mainly accurate, some details are obviously him guessing and not knowing the details, like his ideas about the young messengers is generally correct, they were NOT expert managers, the early WDC members, with a few execeptions, and earliest Exec Strata members (older Sea Org members made up the original Exec Strata both the Flag Exec Strata and then the Int Base/LA recombination setup of the Exec Strata), but there is a more complex picture of WHY Scientology’s management top structures have had problems.
I’d say the Human Resources department, HCO Div 1, has been faulty.
Too much “hitting” and generally not enough “hatting” and I think LRH himself was NOT Mr. Best HCO Div 1 Dept of Personnel that ever walked the planks, in my opinion. He laid a LOT of eggs his own damn self.
And if Dianna could talk free, I goddamn would LOVE to hear Dianna Hubbard talk her mind about this.
I feel, honestly, Karen, that there’s a whole big problem of people today NOT really looking just a little goddamn deeper, into MORE of the complexities of what actually happened.
Sure Mr. David Miscavige has generally dominated and made wholesale messes and directed more decimation of the good people, over the years.
I think he’s sort of kept in place certain people, almost in a Games Condition, where they were NOT allowed to move on, but sort of goaded BACK onto their positions, only to fail dismally in DM’s eyes, sort of like a cyclical torturous top executive life.
I recommend people reading Dane Tops’ writeup, but also realize Dane’s a UFO Illuminati nutter, but most of what Dane says is true.
And I wish we had someone like Dianna, to give her two cents about the management top people shuffle, and waste of the top Class 12s, for instance, in the PRE David Miscavige era.
Scientology’s historical focus on David Miscavige as the bad guy, while he deserves the lion’s share for these last 3 decades agreed, but the story of Scientology’s messing with its Golden Geese staffers precedes David, and it’s a more complex history, which I for one HOPE MORE people can be stirred to pipe up and do some of their own books or chapters about what they firsthand lived through, and name names! Those names WON’T be all David Miscavige.
Love you Karen, hope more ex “biggies” like you would go into MORE detail of life in the pre Miscavige period, to put some real balance, in my opinion, to everything.
The outside world knows DM’s a bully.
But Scientology history is NOT all to be blamed on Mr. Miscavige. He’s just the dominate story, and he likely doesn’t mind being the dominant story, in his sociological depths, he likely appreciates being considered so highly.
More telling, is how we all sort of adapted to DM, and let him do his business.
When ex Sea Org people get to that level of self/staff realization, I think this whole conversation will get a little more interesting and get a little beyond this DM bashing phase.
September 19, 2010 12:09 pmhttp://www.lermanet.com/exit/exit8.html
Dane Tops letter of 1982ish I believe
Dane Tops interview of 2009, showing he’s clearly a bit off, UFO nutter Illuminati conspiracy believer
But his observations of the pre DM period when things were getting cleaned up, only to quickly swing the other way and DM really started his smashing spree that went on decades, Dane’s observations are some of the best I’ve read.
September 20, 2010 7:04 amChuck says..
” And get a little beyond DM bashing…”
” And a broader discussion than DM, DM, DM”
Chuck…read my little story on druggie BRUCE and LRH care and expertise to assist him come out of his drug masses.
Now look at DM. Do you ever believe DM would call for a pc folder to order something to HELP the PC? To enhance the PC ? To ask Ray Mithoff to draw up a program to DO something for betterment ?
Heck NO. This is the monumental difference between DM and LRH.
DM drives people into the deepest depths of their case by throwing them into confinement and asking for CRIMES after HOUR after HOUR.
What would that do to a case ? He has created the mother of all squirrel actions. SEANCES where the mob beat and attack the newbie in SP Hole demanding CRIMES.
This is sadistic and abusive. Like everything else DM has done on Technical lines ~~ it is to HARM the pc.
LRH was not a perfect man. But by golly he did want to sincerely help the pc.
What can you say about Miscavige in comparison ?
September 19, 2010 1:32 pmhttp://www.projectcamelot.org/mediafiles/audio/Ruthless_Adventure_the_lives_of_L_Ron_Hubbard.mp3
This above 1987 BBC radio interview show you hear a whole slew of people close to LRH over the years, comment, pro and con, LRH and LRH’s life.
I wish if any of these people, I know some are alive, but the older generation, I wish had said more and been recorded.
This was quite a good BBC show, I don’t agree with the conclusions, especially about LRH’s intelligence history, since I think he met intelligence people in his years, and read about intelligence tactics, and the books LRH put on the GO hatting checksheets, those books I think he read some of which in his pulp fiction days, and in the 1950s when he was being hounded by various agencies.
But this above DOES show when LRH left Saint Hill to go to Las Palmas, that moment caused a huge stir and a very large loss of followers then ensued in the following years.
I think the impact of LRH’s dramatic personal actions on Scientology HAVE to be more detailed and discussed.
I hope this DM focused phase doesn’t blot out the rest of the history of the movement, and I don’t think it can.
Anyone truly trying to put Hubbard and Scientology in full context, have got to keep reading, and listening to what others who worked with Hubbard have to say from their viewpoints.
I’m for a much broader discussion than sticking to just DM, DM, DM.
I’d love to hear MORE about YOUR times on the Apollo, and your interactions with these other people, like those who spoke in this 1987 radio show, sometime, Karen.
September 20, 2010 6:13 amThanks Chuck
Chuck asked :
I’d love to hear MORE about YOUR times on the Apollo, and your interactions with these other people, like those who spoke in this 1987 radio show, sometime, Karen.
Okay, you asked for it. An Apollo Story.
A Pc arrived from Chicago, lets call him BRUCE. He was a high high druggie. In the drug lists, the pc is asked how many TRIPS or incidents on each drug.
Bruce’s list ran like this
Ecstacy 2912 times
LSD 4982 times
STP 3777 time
Mushroom hallucogenics 5449 times on and on and on
You get the picture. He was my PC and could not run Dianetics. On the first command he doped off and fell asleep. There was almost nothing I could do to wake him up. He red-tagged at the Examiner daily ~~ of course, he got NO AUDITING. All red tagged folders went to LRH immediately, no ifs or buts to see what went wrong and why.
LRH met me on Promenade Deck. He asked if I got the significance of such a heavy drug list and we went to his research room. Bruce’s folder was right on his desk. I sat opposite LRH as he focused 100% of his attention units on the folder and how to get the pc to WIN. I fully and absolutely EXPERIENCED the personal care, the empathy, the deep LRH desire to make the pc in front of him WIN with auditing. He cared. He pushed aside all Evals and other traffic in his office and focused on the pc folder.
He lifted his head and told me. “I know ~~ I have a bright idea. We will make him SWEAT OUT. If any residual drugs are in the body, let’s see if sweating it out makes a difference !” I was somewhat foggy on what “SWEAT OUT” meant.
Bruce was CSed by LRH to put on swimming trunks and do deckwork 5 hours a day, heavy heavy exercise ~~ we were in the Mediterranean and it was summer. There was no Sauna. There was no exercise gym machines. There was nothing…we were on the high seas. LRH made sure the MLO gave lots of vitamins and cal mag to Bruce daily. Bruce did this for 6 weeks. He got a nice tan, he became alert and perky. He did not come back to me as a pc because my line-up was full, he was re-assigned to Quentin Hubbard. Quentin was my daily morning Twin for daily morning TRs in the Interneship. I asked Quentin before morning TRs how Bruce was running.
I found out that Bruce was running R3R (Dianetics) without doping off !!!.. He was winning !
This story is the story of the very first PURIFICATION Rundown ever run. It was primitive. It was done on the High Seas. It was done because LRH cared that the pc would WIN. When BRUCE left the Flagship Apollo he was hardly recognizable from the drugged up sluggish dopey looking guy of 3 months earlier.
The Purification Rundown greatly evolved after this. But this was the research PILOT, this was the test case than then later rolled out as PURIFICATION Rundown.
I saw and experienced how much LRH cared for the next guy and wanted then to improve and advance. You would have to have been with me in LRH’s office to see LRH’s attitude and caring and diligence for this one druggie to duplicate why I say I saw and experienced the good and exemplary side of LRH.
September 19, 2010 2:18 pmhttp://www.projectcamelot.org/mediafiles/audio/Ruthless_Adventure_the_lives_of_L_Ron_Hubbard.mp3
The above is a must listen for Scientology/Hubbard history buffs, of which I am admittedly one, even though I am NOT a supporter of Scientology. I just wish for MORE history of Scientology to be flushed into the public domain for whichever next generation or this generation writer does a more complete full picture of everything.
My other thoughts which I posted years ago, about the personnel problems of losing “good” people systematically, I think traces even deeper to LRH, unfortunately, and really thus also to actually human nature, since I don’t think all can be blamed even on Hubbard.
There are sociological and psychological hard wired things in our DNA nature, that make it a given that persons in power act in various ways, and history plays out in a somewhat limited set of patterns.
Scientology’s got a totalitarian, undemocractic core due to LRH’s Keeping Scientology Working policy, a conscious choice, that even Roy Wallis in his all time brilliant “The Road to Total Freedom” noted that Hubbard took the reigns of his Dianetics, and then his Scientology subjects.
He prided himself over the years, and it is in his advices to the CMO, of knowing personnel, so that he could approve the postings to the key positions.
Policy in OEC Vol one lays out how he was very much “on the lines” through the years, for key postings, like ED positions.
n LRH’s final years, he lays out how he was trying to “turn over” his management hats, and what he left the movement with, is all covered in HCO PLs, advices to Int Management, to ASI, to RTC.
LRH lays it out.
LRH is just a human being.
He chose the un democratic setup, reference Keeping Scientology Working, and reference his 1950s policies.
We (Scientology, official setup that LRH left for the world) thus have the undemocratic Sea Org echelons.
On top of that, we have David Miscavige, who will die of old age, or run off (unlikely), more likely he’ll do a non violent Tony Montana self destruction ending on himself, and maybe not, since Scientology is just so driven STILL by LRH’s policies, that even DM, I’m in the minority on this and sound like a broken record and I hate to again repeat my opinion, but I think he’s just the temp bad example of what happens to an undemocratic setup.
Remember the setup is LRH’s, the undemocratic, ruled from the top, with WDC, Exec Strata and other parts of International Management supposed to be the ones coordinating and calling the shots per LRH’s strategies and policies.
The personnel who run a Scientology echelon undemocratic bureaucratic setup will ALWAYS be a problem.
Agreed DM is the Golden Goose stomper/squasher/unappreciator for the last 30 years of Stalinesque stability.
But Scientology is still made up of humans, and in my opinion, the outside world understands us humans BETTER than Hubbard understood us humans, and the world already has the been/there–done/that examples of what Scientology is going through with David Miscavige these last 30 years.
What I think will last, or outlast, all DM has done, is LRH’s scriptural policies and writings and lectures, which all dovetail, because they all came from the same man’s brain (I don’t believe in souls nor thetans nor body thetan interference).
Scientology’s a subject, it’s LRH’s writings/lectures. It’s the practice of spiritual talk therapy, and spiritual high volume exorcism (the OT 3-7 high volume dead space alien exorcism of “body thetans” that supposedly, per the Xenu OT 3, infest all of us today).
Anyways, I wish some of your contemporaries from your days, and days earlier than even your years, would join on this chat site, and tell MORE Scientology history.
I feel this juggernaut sort of ex member movement to gang up and get Miscavige off his Stalin role of decimating deteriorating stability, will end someday, with of course Miscavige vacating the stage, one way or the other, but I think unfortunately he’s going to be doing his “job” a long time.
Thanks so much for going public Karen! You are a really special person! God, I hope MORE of the earlier ex biggies could have had their say on the internet, but they died, like John McMasters, Reg Sharpe, before the internet, and this era of putting down in writing or on video, one’s life experiences so freely.
thank goodness for the internet!
September 20, 2010 10:23 pm
This LATAM Sea Org information is a horror story.
In the 1980s and 1990s, sleep deprivation occurred over and over and INT/GOLD Base.
Many reports surfaced that Sea Org members had to got 4-5 days with little if any sleep before an INT event working in overdrive to make DM look good.
But I had no idea this cruelty had been exported to other continents. I will be Emailing you privately on this post.
* Falling asleep while standing up* due to sleep deprivation. I have heard this over and over and over again. This is a Sea Org atrocity. This is DM hijacked “Scientology”
Do you know if there are Message Boards in Mexico where ex-SO tell their stories ?
September 21, 2010 9:11 pm
My dear Tom,
Thank you so much for this. I got the sequence, I got the time track. Understood. I remember you well when you were married to Carol. More importantly I duplicated the years of working for pennies an hour in exchange for ABUSE.
You are a survivor and you have stories to tell.
Being loyal to LRH makes one stick in through the dark times. I want you to keep a tight line with me. We ex-SO vets who have been through it ~~ we take care of our own.
Jenny Linsen /De Vocht is a troubled human being and the worst embarrassment on that CNN show “A History of Violence”.
I was reminded of an incident that occurred in my last year in the Sea Org. I had been auditing late way over dinner time at AOLA. I crossed L Ron Hubbard way to go the dining room ~~but the food had been cleared away and only food left was in the CMO/INCOMM dining room.
I entered with a plate to grab a small bite to eat when a CMO twerpy 21 year old raved at me : “What are doing here ? This is a CMO dining room. Get the hell out of here……”
I stared at this Jenny Linson type character. She was throwing me out the dining room on her status denying my dinner because of her Sea Org Rank. She did not have a clue as to who I was, she was a newbie.
I went back to post without eating.
That’s the way the Sea Org is set up and what it has morphed into.
Bold by me.
You certainly do - Scientologists LIE.
What has been not mentioned here about Bruce, is that whilst he was locked up in his cabin for god knows how long, he went berserk, ripped up his mattress and furniture and stuffed it all out of the porthole in the cabin where he was held captive on board the Apollo, strange Karen didn't mention this.Odd behaviour from someone who was winning.Or could it be he succumbed to his fate as he was stuck at sea and couldn't get off the damned boat.
Am I the only one that can see what's going on here:
Wogs do NOT understand Scientologists as clearly as they think they do, thank God for Gerry Armstrong.
Watch this scenario, interesting to say the least;