Thursday, 11 September 2014

The Betrayal of Mr. Robert Minton

The Betrayal of Robert Minton

There was once a director on the board of Robert Minton's Lisa McPherson trust, who wrote a number of virulent attack screeds in email and on chat boards against the Execs running the LMT, including David Cecere, and Stacy Brooks. and Arnie Lerma (who was on the advisory board of the LMT and a previous Director for, as well as for Arlington Community Television.

Ms Greenway was ejected from the board, though even after being ejected got an interview in RADAR magazine claiming to have been a Director for the LMT as a reference, omitted being ejected. She later, with no previous legal experience, talked (or more) Ken Dandar into making her his trial consultant for the Lisa McPherson trust. Ken's own trial consultant Dr Garko, who has legal experience and still runs a practice quit when Ken brought her on board. Ken's Pi did a background check on her, and though nothing was amiss that he could find, he told Ken something was wrong because "there is too much missing time" where she simply did not exist.

I asked her partner in crime, Peter Alexander where they met, and he said "In an AOL chat room"

Ms Greenway and Peter Alexander were producing a movie called "THE PROFIT" which Bob Minton told me, he hoped would create an income stream for the LMT and future cult activities.

Mr Minton had a verbal, handshake agreement with Lisa's heirs in the lawsuit that out of any proceeds from the Lisa McPherson case a portion would go toward supporting an anti cult organization... like the LMT, in exchange for this agreement Mr Minton gave Ken Dandar's two man lawfirm a check for $500,000.

Ken Dandar's largest previous cash settlement in a case was $50,000 (source Mike Rinder to Bob Minton during his settlement talks relayed by telephone)

In the contract Bob signed with Greenway et al to produce the profit there was a binding arbitration clause if there was any problem in the future. One researcher found out that Ms Greenway just so happened to have previously sold a property she owned at an attractive price to the head of the Florida Arbitration Committee.. Bob had Given Greenway and Peter a check from Union Bank in Switzerland for 500,000. The agreement was pay an additional 2 million in cash.. when the movie was completed.

The movie was to be show at the Cannes Film festival. When it did, Peter and Patricia took a flight to the other side of the Alps, and drove to Cannes, through Geneva. In Geneva, a large package with 2 million in $5000 franc French banknotes (since withdrawn from circulation) was prepared by a associate of Mr Minton whom I had introduced him to, who was referred to as "the Fatman" in the Lisa case, and as "bob's money man in Switzerland'.. He is also my son's Godfather, I was the one who introduced him to Mr Minton in 1996 or 7 I believe, when Mr Minton had gotten telephone call from a friend at a bank in Switzerland, that the Swiss Financial Police were getting all spun up and snooping around, and making inquiries. Marty Rathbun mentioned this incident as the time that Bob gave up... this is not true. Here is what happened,,,

Mr Minton then called me in a panic, asking me what should he do? I suggested he contact a freind of mine who had worked in FINNCenn, Financial Crimes and Money Laundering division of the US Dept of the Treasury. That man, The Fat Man, traveled over to Switzerland and found that a certain Mr Lebow, from America, had retained the ex-head of the Geneva Bar association... and given them a letter from the Nigerian Senate that said that Mr Minton might possibly have engaged in nefarious activities when Mr Minton and his partner brokered the famous Nigerian Junk bond buyback. Nothing illegal under US law did occur, Nigeria had tons of national debt notes, and oil revenues were starting to come in from a newly developed oil field. The Nigerians had approached Salomon brothers and asked them to do the job,,, to covertly, buy up their debt, currently trading at less than 20 cents on the dollar without raising suspicions it was Nigeria itself doing it which would raise the cost of the buyback. Solomon Brothers wanted 3% commission. Bob Minton said he would do it for 2%, and did it. That is where Bob got his big money from,

Anyway, this lawyer in Geneva was told by Mr Lebow that a "minority religion in America" was being attacked by a wealthy bigot and hate monger in America whose money was in Geneva banks...and here is this letter indicating possible irregularities (Note Lebow had previous gone to Nigeria and had essentially bribed and lied to the Nigerian Senate to get this letter) The lawyer used his connections in Geneva to get the Swiss Financial police spun up.

When the Fat Man arrived he explained to the lawyer whom his client was. The lawyer had no idea it was $cientology, upon learning this, he washed his hands of Mr Lebow. The head of the Swiss Financial Police, also, previously, just happened to have attended a workshop hosted in London by FinnCenn, and had been sitting in the front row for one of the Fat Man's presentations! The whole thing went away rapidly, and Bob Minton and his fortune was saved!

Getting back to the THE PROFIT...

During the screening at the Cannes Film Festival, most of the people in the room walked out. Sitting next to Mr Minton was Maria Pia Gardini, she and her deceased husband had been in the film production business in Italy for decades, she turned to Bob when the lights came on, revealing the now empty room and told Mr Minton that he had been conned by The Profit movie, and that she could have produced that piece of rubbish for less than 100,000.

I was once described by Ms Greenway as a liar and a worm on IRC chat in front of Dave Touretsky... Mr Vreeland, Deanna Holmes, Rob Clark, Pooks, and Tikk, I believe as they hung out there, and a few others for trying to tell what Maria said to Bob at Cannes and about the final 2 million paid in cash offshore..which, perhaps, Bob was not supposed to ever disclose, but he did tell me on the telephone...and the Fatman confirmed the details of the final cash payment as he was the one who put the money in the envelope at the bank in Switzerland. When I described what Maria Pia Gardini told him at Cannes. Ms Greenway described Maria as a liar, and this writer as a 'worm'..

After first breaching this information Frank Oliver called me up and told me that I could not afford litigation, he had testified in that case, choreographed by MS Greenway also. I tried to get him to talk to me about it, he would not. More on that later.. I took it as a veiled threat to gain my silence.

Bob felt he couldnt sue Ms Greenway because of the arbitration clause in the contract... I had informed him that the head of the arbitration committee in Tampa had purchased a property from Ms Greenway at a very good price... the word bribe comes to mind doesn't it. He didn't know what to do about The PROFIT. And he was under so much pressure in the Lisa Case from scientology....But he felt betrayed... which he was. Later, when Bob had to do a recant, MS Greenway led the attack dogs (See Gerry Armstrong's Follies page) upon Bob Minton, chanting BOB SOLD OUT....after previously, over the years, attacking myself, Gerry Armstrong, Tom Pagett (all of us litigants with Scientology) viciously and repeatedly...

The claims that Bob Sold Out started after Mr Minton announced he was going to have to do a recant affidavit for perjuries in his testimony and depositions in the Lisa Case regarding statements made about monies paid to Ken Dandar...Mr Minton told me that Ken Dandar had instructed him to lie about the final 1 or 2 million he had paid to Ken Dandar. the total was also, exactly 2.5 million, like The Profit which was 2.5 million.

Here is the rest of THAT story.

Bob Minton Sees God....

At Bob Minton's home in Boston, his wife answered the telephone. A voice said "Bob and Stacy made love in your bed last night" An ex-osa employee from Boston area using the name Pooks posted claiming that she had been asked to make that call but refused, at least confirming the fact the call was from OSA.

The next day, his wife emptied their joint account, I believe Bob said she transferred 11 million out of his account... Brian Haney had received a 50 million $ settlement to end his litigation against Zwan ( a scientologist ) who owned Digital Lightwave. Brian had promised Bob to help him out funding the LMT. Brian unfortunately said he could not keep that handshake agreement with Bob, cause he had signed an agreement to not give any money to a list of names... including The LMT, Bob Minton, Stacy Brooks, a few others and Arnie Lerma.

Bob had been hoping the THE PROFIT movie would bring income in him from theaters.. that hope was dashed in that empty room at Cannes...

Bob shortly thereafter announced he was going to have to close The Lisa McPherson trust.

I had not spoken to Bob much in a long time since after saving his fortune stopping the Swiss Financial Police Inquiry. In hindsight, Bob stopped talking to me shortly after MS Greenway got involved with the LMT as a Director... I credit her lies with poisoning the well. When Bob finally called me and started telling me what had been going on down there, was after a Criminal Trial for Perjury, I believe it was in front of Judge Shaeffer.

All through this hearing in the Clearwater Court house, Kendrick Moxon acted as the prosecuting attorney for the state, introducing evidence of perjury and perjury in the various perhaps 50 to hundred hours Mr Minton had been being deposed and been on the stand being questioned. He was under so much pressure that Bob started to crack from the induced stress. Anyone who has been in litigation with scientology knows what Im talking about, the rest of you will have to trust me. They were trying to kill him with stress.

Bob claimed that Ken Dandar instructed him to lie about the money he paid Ken... Scientology kept asking hims about it. Bob lied about it as instructed to do.

Right in the old litigation evals on Gerry Armstrongs site, one eval says "Bring pressure to bear upon a matter of no consequence to trick the target into thinking they would have to lie, then go after them for perjury"

What was being done to Bob was right out of RTC's playbook... The only one who knew about it in the beginning was Gerry Armstrong, who explained it me later after the fact. Gerry had been demonized as a kook by scientology, assisted by the same band listed on his "Follies" pages, the same people that attacked other litigants... with Ms Greenway in the background...using her special talents to manipulate them into doing her work for her. I interpreted the attacks upon Bob as an effort to bring him to suicide... as attempted murder, if you will.

Anyway, I had not heard from Mr Minton in a long time and then one night he called me....

Kendrick Moxons Bigged Flub

Bob Minton was charged in Boston Criminal Court for criminal perjuries in the Florida cases,, in hopes they could get a judgement against his property, his home in Boston. That case was remanded to the Clearwater Court, because all the documents were already there, (and I bet the Boston court sure didn't want to deal with this). Moxon conducted the prosecution of that criminal case in front of Judge - a lady judge, Judge Shaeffer I believe ) He introduced exhibit after exhibit of instances of perjury by Bob...while Jonas sat silently and Bob got more and more depressed, and finally Moxon rested his case.

Bob was sweating bullets. A criminal conviction for perjury is a felony and Bob would no longer be able to work as an investment banker, and at the time he was hurting for cash he could spend in the US, he HAD to be able to work again... Bob by this time had finally done what he should have done long before, had called in his expensive Boston lawyers, Jonas something or other, stood up, having not said anything during the whole proceedings, and asked the Judge if the prosecution had indeed rested their case. The Judge nodded yes they have. Then Bob's lawyer, read from the Florida statute for Criminal perjury conviction, which stated, and I am paraphrasing from memory - That there is a statutory requirement that an affidavit be filed in the instant case, however Moxon only filed exhibits from the McPherson case and copies of depositions and testimony transcripts.

So Bobs Lawyer told the Judge, "So I ask that the charges be dismissed"

The Judge said "You got me" and Dismissed the charges....

The same statute re perjury states that if a person recants all prior perjuries in a case, at anytime before the case goes final, then that person cannot be found guilty of criminal perjury, and by this point after all the money drains, Mr Minton simply had to be still able to earn a living as an investment banker...which a conviction would preclude.

When Bob's lawyer finally stood up and got the case dismissed on that technicality, is the moment Bob saw God. He called me that night and relayed everything I have typed here for you and told me he was going to have to do a recant and he said, in an anguished voice,

Arnie, I'm going to ruin the McPherson case.

To which I replied to my old friend, "Bob, as long as you are telling God's truth you will have my blessing to proceed" and I said that I would would stand by him through the valley in the shadow of evil."

The next day he called Mike Rinder and said he needed to work with them to find all the perjuries to do a recant affidavit. He did throw up into the bushes on his way there the first time.

PS: I took a lot heat, and was again called a kook and a liar, when I first described this case because it did not show up in the CW Court docket... which was, it turned out, because the case was brought in Boston Criminal court and then remanded to Pinnellas Court for trial, because all the documents were there, which I did not know when I first talked about it years ago and Bob didn't mention it at the time. At that time those files were not available on line anyway. The fact there was nothing in the Pinellas docket was proof I was "pulling it out of my ass" as I was accused by one of the same players.

At this time I could not go into detail as Bob was calling every evening after meeting with Rinder and telling me what they discussed each day of interest. I listened, having promised Bob I would not speak about these things, so he would have someone he could confide everything in. I was his confidant and guru to some degree after he said he was going to recant. My primary concern was keeping Bob from being pushed to suicide by the constant accusation BOB SOLD OUT... which he didn't. He just cleared up all the lies he had been tricked into telling.

I described the circumstances of the final 2 million to Greenway and the final 1 or 2 million to Dandar, to my lawyer in DC, Mr David Masselli, he quipped. Arnie, that is the oldest scam in the book of cons. it is called "The Spanish Prisoner"...Where you give somebody cash and they make you promise to never reveal that you did...

One day while Bob was sitting over at OSA going through pages of testimony, he asked one of the older OSA INT guys in Rinder's office if Ms Greenway worked for them. He replied "Not that I know of, but I have often wondered if she was"..

There is a fellow named Pete Wilhelm, who is now retired but was the Director, NRL Naval Center for Space Technology (US Navy) - located in South West Washington DC, near an area called Anacostia, and a neighborhood called Oxon Hill. Which is close to where Ms Greenway grew up. Seems Peter Wilheim married her sister, making her, his sister in law.

The Day the Sky Fell down On Bob Minton

This is from a telephone call from Stacy Brooks. Bob and Stacy knew that jessie, Frank and Peter knew about some of the stuff that Bob had been busted for lying about. But, with the new Trial Consultant being Patricia Greenway.. a person with no prior legal experience, it appeared that each time, each of those people whom Stacy and Bob thought were their friends got on the stand.. Bob came out alone looking like a kook cause it appeared to Stacy and Bob that all the testimony had been choreographed, mostly by omissions of the truth of what they knew. Stacy and Bob got more and more depressed. they expected Peter would be of little help... then thought frank would at least mention what he knew about that corroberated Bobs recant data, but Frank said nothing, Then good old Jessie, they thought Jessie would clear everything up, 0 but he too went along to get along. Then finally good old boy, who told me he was once a Sunday school teacher, John Merritt who had been Bob's attorney for the LMT got on the stand... Good old John, 4-Hershey-bars-consumed-per-court-brief-written John Merritt got on the stand, he would tell them what happened... But he did not.

I believe also that Ms Greenway choreographed the testimony of the lot of them telling each of them that they must do this to "SAVE THE LISA CASE"...such a noble cause indeed...

Bob could only stand by his recant affidavit of facts.. When Stacy saw that good old John Merritt was going along with the charade her heart fell to the floor.

She told me that after that hearing when John Merritt steeped down after testifying, he first walked over to Ken Dandar's table and Ms Greenway stood up and and they hugged each other, then he walked over toward Stacy..

Stacy, who was standing there with arms limp at her sides, palms open, turned forward, thinking and mumbling out loud..

"Why, John, WHY, WHY DID YOU DO IT"...

John Merritt walked up to Stacy and gave her a hug, while her arms hung limp in shock and he held her tight, whispering into her ear:

"That's what you get for trusting a son-of-a bitch"

It was in this moment that Stacy Young decided that if they were going to lie to try to destroy the man she loved, Bob Minton, she would lie if she had to, to save him.

Postscript: The Lisa case turned out just the way $cientology wanted it, case sealed, un-citable, everyone gagged, and some money was paid to lisa's heirs and not one thin dime to the anti-cult movement. A year or two later I got telephone call from good old Jon Merritt, he said: "Hi Arnie, it's John, I just won an election to a judgeship in Jacksonville Florida, i will have the power of life and death.." I paused, and simply said, "Good to hear from you John, you will need it."

LINK: more by Lerma, Why Bob wrote his first check to this cause

more by Lerma...
I needed to get all this out of my head and in one place... you guys made it possible...I used to try to explain this stuff and the newsgroup would turn into a food fight...all of it viewed in context is more compelling. And there is still more that correlates to come... I have actually been pushing and teaching the characteristics of a sociopathic personality, and covert hypnosis techniques, for years in preparation for being able to have the opportunity to calmly allow you the opportunity to see through my eyes at what *I* witnessed and was told by witnesses. And It was the very effectiveness of the mind control methods that moved me to begin years of inquiry into hypnosis and control of minds after Shawn Lonsdale was found dead in his room

I had to learn how the trick was done!


Bob said, on one occasion that he had only one regret,

that he had ever stopped listening to my advice.

On the last telephone call before his death, he told me that he felt, in hindsight, that The Fatman and me, were the only people he had given money to, who did not rip him off...

Quote Originally Posted by lotus View Post
I guess we could say he had been framed up without knowing it!
Who would know with such vicious and hidden tactics and double agents
He had been caught in a spider web.

At least he could communicate and speak his mind with you before he left!


What was the motivation of Bob Minton - why and how did he got involved in the Lisa MacPherson case and trust???? I only know he was a wealthy man!
He told me shortly after he arrived on the scene. that he had been punished as a child by being locked in a dark closet.

-------- He had been reading about Xenu and all the media from the raids in 95. He was a lurker on Alt.religion.scientology newsgroup for some time. See previous link for why he wrote his first check which was to while I was treasurer.

A few months after that I asked Bob if he would buy the computer I was sitting at, as I knew that the only way to do anything about scientology was to go after them...bring the battle to them...My business was in tatters, *I* was in some degree in litigation 'shock' from the raid and the pressure of RTC vs Lerma.
some of my best clients became frightened to continue using me... and amongst my clients, I was Lynda Carter's soundman,

WonderWoman.. and I asked her to be our front man (woman) in this case... while standing in her kitchen on Harrington road... Wonderwoman said no. She wanted nothing to do $cientology....and now we had both been raided, me by a bunch a crazy cult loons, she her house had been raided by the FBI as her husband was on the Board of Directors of BCCI.. the bank that got in trouble for Iran Contra Money.

I was 55K in credit card debt, my business was fried, *I* was fried, and I couldn't move the money from credit card to credit card any longer to stay above water... I asked Mr Minton if he would buy my computer I was typing at... describing what was going on in what was left of my life.

He sent this short note:

"Arnie, Help is on the way"

At 8 AM there was a next-morning Fedex guy there with a fedex envelope,

In it was a check for Ten Thousand Dollars from Bob.

In the memo section it said simply:

"For shuteye"

God bless Bob Minton..


And end note by ex member Joe Cisar:

" the more any critic publicly attacks Bob Minton, the less likely it is that any millionaire will ever again be as generous with critics as he was. " LINK
more by Lerma:
As an investment banker, in those circles, one's reputation is everything..
The stereotype of the investment bank, is expensive cigars in a smoke filled club and a glass of cognac, where
men make deals concerning millions of dollars with a nod and a handshake..

Only the latter part was true for Robert Minton. He was used to dealing with men of their word, who would
do what they said they were going to do, on a handshake.

He was not expecting the reality of modern day pirates in coastal Florida.  
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New London, Connecticut

Default Re: The Betrayal of Mr. Robert Minton

All this from one of the top conspiracy theorists (Arnie) on ESMB.

Bottom line. Arnie hates Patricia for calling him out for being a liar, a con man in his own very special way, a mooch, a man who uses women and then abandons them once the money is gone, and your basic kook.

I'm not going to bother to reply and correct all the lies and bullshit this man has posted. While I do appreciate all that he done re: exposing Scn, I have a problem with this kind of post. Maligning a woman that has done so much to expose Scn and did it anonymously because she doesn't need to take credit, is just sick.

This is a 15 year old battle. Get over it Arnie.

She suggested they SIT OUTSIDE IN JULY in clearwater at NOON????
Shawn said "she talked so fast it made my head spin, and Peter seemed to be in a trance"
Was at that restaraunt caddy corner from Ft Harrison across from south end of parking structure, on the corner, within sight of FT Harrisons 150+(1) cameras pointed at the public.

Through pooks as mouthpiece, pg confirmed this happened, only claiming she handed the 100$ under the table.

I believe Shawn despite the very suspicious fact that When I later talked to Shawn and asked him about the first meeting of pg after his deposition he claimed he did not remember anything... l!!

(1) Testimony of FLB Chief of Security, while on the stand in the Clearwater 13 Picketing trial)


oined: Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:00 am
Posts: 4149
Location: Hop-Skip Away from Scientology TODAY!
From memory, the best I can recall of the one telephone call I got from shawn...

A lady named patricia greenway and a guy named peter stopped by today while I was filming. It was really strange. She talked so fast that my head was spinning and peter looked like he was in a trance.

She asked if she could buy me somthing to eat,so we went to (forgot name the place on the south east corner of th block Ft harrission and the County gfovernment bulding is on, caddy corenr from th e county building) She suggested that we sit outside.and asked me if she could make a contribution to cover "Video Editing Expenses" and gave me $100 bill.


I described this in a thead on ocmb after Shawn announced that he had been served a summons to appear to be deposed..under the old LMT picketing injunction"
ADDED, A PM I sent to an old friend yesterday:

Hi, I wish we could be sitting in the Bar again, at this moment and go over this stuff. I miss you, I am the same man you drank with that night..a bit wiser, and a bit older. It was Ms Greenway's trail of poisoned wells that inspired me to begin study of covert hypnotic methods that from my researches have been militarized. The last straw was Shawn Lonsdale and her handing him that $100, while sitting outside in JULY?.. where the cameras of Ft Harrison could see them..Shawn called me after that meeting and his exact words were:
"Arnie, a couple came up to me on the street today, introduced themselves as Peter alexander and Patrica greenway, "Patricia was talking to fast it made my head spin" She asked if she could buy me lunch, when we got to that restraunt (The one caddy corner from Ft Harrison one block south) She suggested we sit outside. (im thinking outside in JULY WTF?) She asked if she could make a donation to defray "video editing expenses" She gave me a $100 bill" = A week later Shawn was subpeona'd under color of law using the LMT Injunction on which Greenway is named, (I am not on it) ... Shawn called me again after he was deposed, he was upset about people calling me names on IRC, I asked him to recount to me what he had told me in his prior telephone call. HE DID NOT RECALL ANY OF IT. When he died, is the instant *I* decided to begin my study of covert mental manipulation.. I have been informed by an`ex special forces guy, who attended the Ft Benning School of the Americas, that they are taught how to hypnotize anyone without their knowing it, and implant whatever ideas they desire.. and that I was on the right track, and to keep going, but to watch my back,"

(only) "Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun" Noel Coward 1931

Last edited by Lermanet_com; 12th September 2014 at 01:08 AM.
Crusader RogerB's Avatar
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Default Re: The Betrayal of Mr. Robert Minton


I am sorry to say your last post above is perhaps the meanest, nastiest, most deceitful attack on a decent person bravely undertaking the revealing of who has done what in the wars and attacks the Kult has and continues to level at decent people in the society about them that disagree with them and their dirty deeds.

The Kult still to this day is attacking those it sees threaten to expose it . . . Arnie has spoken of the tactics applied in the past that reveal likely repeats in Present Time and by the specific sneaky operatives we need to be alerted to.

So, WTF with your attempt to discredit his effort and him!

What you have done above is a violation of not only decency, good manners among troops on the same side in this battle but, the explicit rules of our forum here. You have leveled a nasty, destructive, personal attack on Arnie.

Your writing is not a rebuttal of what he has written: it is a directed personal attack on him that attempts to smear him . . . all with no facts presented.

It makes me look at who or what really are you?

I do not doubt Arnie's factuality as he backs up what he says or reports with sources and references. I now doubt you . . . I did not before.


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Default Re: The Betrayal of Mr. Robert Minton

Well I feel I do know, and I have the greatest difficulty reconciling what I saw and heard with mine own eyes and ears with certain versions of this history.

And there is much left out that might cast Mr Minton in a bad light, but the essay was too long already for the "too long; didn't read' crowd that has become conditioned to believe that true understanding may be gleaned from soundbytes. These instances had been previously, widely publicized by scientology, and I refuse to assist them. Most of the negative aspects of this amazing individual were themselves induced reactions by the attacks upon him, some of which... were immortalized here: Robert Minton Harassment Timeline. While reading the prior, ask yourself how long you would have held up...before you sought to disengage, to now save your own life, amongst the others you saved...

"“That hatred springs more from self-contempt than from a legitimate grievance is seen in the intimate connection between hatred and a guilty conscience. There is perhaps no surer way of infecting ourselves with virulent hatred toward a person than by doing him a grave injustice. That others have a just grievance against us is a more potent reason for hating them than that we have a just grievance against them. ……Self-righteousness is a loud din raised to drown the voice of guilt within us.”
Eric Hoffer, "True Believer"

More Lerma posts related to prior paragraph, on this page of ESMB

Join Date
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New London, Connecticut

Default Re: The Betrayal of Mr. Robert Minton

Quote Originally Posted by RogerB View Post

I am sorry to say your last post above is perhaps the meanest, nastiest, most deceitful attack on a decent person bravely undertaking the revealing of who has done what in the wars and attacks the Kult has and continues to level at decent people in the society about them that disagree with them and their dirty deeds.

The Kult still to this day is attacking those it sees threaten to expose it . . . Arnie has spoken of the tactics applied in the past that reveal likely repeats in Present Time and by the specific sneaky operatives we need to be alerted to.

So, WTF with your attempt to discredit his effort and him!

What you have done above is a violation of not only decency, good manners among troops on the same side in this battle but, the explicit rules of our forum here. You have leveled a nasty, destructive, personal attack on Arnie.

Your writing is not a rebuttal of what he has written: it is a directed personal attack on him that attempts to smear him . . . all with no facts presented.

It makes me look at who or what really are you?

I do not doubt Arnie's factuality as he backs up what he says or reports with sources and references. I now doubt you . . . I did not before.

Arnie backs up nothing. It's his take on the matter and he's lying. The reason I'm not going to bother going point by point with Arnie on this, is because I've already done it several times. He's a delusional liar. He makes up shit. He takes advantage of women and takes their money and love and then fucks them over when they can't do any more for him.

Don't care that you don't like it. Read Arnie's posts. He's a right wing holocaust denier and a conspiracy kook that has a personal hatred for Patricia Greenway, who had done a lot to expose the cult.
Patty Pieniadz Moher

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson

Re: The Betrayal of Mr. Robert Minton

Quote Originally Posted by Pooks View Post
Arnie backs up nothing. It's his take on the matter and he's lying. The reason I'm not going to bother going point by point with Arnie on this, is because I've already done it several times. He's a delusional liar. He makes up shit. He takes advantage of women and takes their money and love and then fucks them over when they can't do any more for him.

Don't care that you don't like it. Read Arnie's posts. He's a right wing holocaust denier and a conspiracy kook that has a personal hatred for Patricia Greenway, who had done a lot to expose the cult.
Thank you Pooks, so much, for providing an opportunity to create wiser activists

1) "Arnie backs up nothing." I am describing what I saw and heard occurred, as it occurred with mine own eyes or ears..

2) "Delusional Liar... " my reply "Ad Hominem"

"The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

1 AND 2) see 25 ways to suppress truth LINK

"2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the “How dare you!” gambit." LINK

3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such “arguable rumors”. If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a “wild rumor” which can have no basis in fact.

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as “kooks”, “right-wing”, “liberal”, “left-wing”, “terrorists”, “conspiracy buffs”, “radicals”, “militia”, “racists”, “religious fanatics”, “sexual deviates”, and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

I could go on... though I will address one item Holocaust Denier, see this page addressing all of this rubbish


And what you see above, is precisely how it was done to Robert Minton and by the very same band of (deleteds).
Crusader Smurf's Avatar
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Default Re: The Betrayal of Mr. Robert Minton

Quote Originally Posted by prosecco View Post
I don't know much about any of the personalities here, but would say that it's unfair to say one isn't going to bother to reply and correct all the lies and bullshit as it sorta infers, well, it's lies and bullshit...
For the most part, ESMB is about discussing Scientology, our observations of it how it has effected people's lives. During the Bob Minton/LMT days, there was alot of frustration & anger by multiple critcs on how best to protest & expose the cult & it resulted in alot of personality conflicts & some critics trying to one-up others on who had more experience than others on how to fight/expose Scientology.

These arguments are well-known & can be found on multiple sites, including Arnie's. Rather than focusing on who's right or wrong, who's the liar & who is not, may I suggest we focus on what's important TODAY and let go of the past. There are a couple of "old guard" critics who still despise me for my past & I could care less. I don't spend any time or effort arguing with them.. it takes away from what is important. If they want to spend their time & effort disparaging me, then, obviously, they have way too much time on their hands to spend on triviality.

Arnie & I have not always agreed on things, but regardless, I greatly admire the time & effort he has spent fighting/exposing this damn cult; the same goes for Gerry Armstrong. We may never be friends, but we are united in exposing this cult. The same goes for Pooks.

This is not about getting along, being friends with each other, or agreeing with each other. It's about being united in fighting a common enemy.

Very true Smurf,

here is something i wrote:

"Those that think they own us
want us at each others throats,
rather than united at theirs"

Though I'd like to address another ad hominem from the above regarding using women...

My last marriage... 2009, I had about 225,000 after selling by home of 30 years, paying all my debts and taxes and paying for back surgury (25,000 at Tampa Spine on the causeway.. A Pi was there at that time, I recognized him and put his picture on the hotel computer in the hallway as the background image... he left) I moved to Chicago and married a gal who during the time we were married came in to over 500,000 in cash from her prior divorce. to the civil engineer for one of the largest development firms on the North SIde of Chicago... an overpass bears his name on Interstate 94 above O'Hare...

On March 4th 2013 I was granted a divorce, my net worth by this time was about $40,000.. On March 5th a bounty hunter knocked on my door looking for his $20,000 as my now ex wife had gotten busted for drugs and had skipped bail in a nearby county....I showed the bail bondsmen the divorce decree dated the day before. He almost cried. I told him he and I had a lot in see, we both got fucked by the same gal. The lesson I learned, and it was a HELL of an expensive one, was that there is not one whit of difference, dealing with a psychopathic personality or dealing with OSA!
Last edited by Lermanet_com; 12th September 2014 at 06:23 AM.

  1. Admin Emma's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Betrayal of Mr. Robert Minton

    Years ago I "banned" the continuation of Minton Wars on this site - for this very reason.

    Arnie, as much bad as you have to say about Patricia Greenway, she has just as much to say about you. And it paints you in just as bad a light.

    Which is true? I don't know. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of you two, but seeing as though Patricia doesn't post here, and even if she did I don't think I could stand the bullshit it would create, we will never know.

    I'm closing this thread and if you ever go on one of these rants again, I'll close you too.
    Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be. - Anonymous.
  2. Thanks AnonyMary says "thank you" for this post
    Likes RogerB, Pooks, AnonLover, He-man liked this post
    Disagree Sharone Stainforth, DOC0715 disagreed with this post
    WTF? Sharone Stainforth said WTF? to this post
Closed Thread
from Lermanet on esmb...the thread has been closed by esmb so I can't put a link, but I think this post should be preserved for the future...after all if you can't have free speech, what have you got left? That we should hide everything and let our emotions and feelings have no place in this world...that's what scientologists do...isn't it?

The Master Manipulator by Arnie Lerma


  1. An excellent psychological analysis of what we are dealing with:
    9/11 Truth: Why Do Good People Become Silent—or Worse—About 9/11?

    PS: Thank you for doing such a nice job webbing this Sharone!

  2. You are welcome, more than welcome. I sat up half the night trying to get this, against all the odds. ESMB was not welcoming. I had already been told ESMB moderaters were on the lookout for me...I was NOT wanted there...I fought their beliefs...People continually say...believe what you want...? Yes, believe what you want to believe in...but if that is detrimental to your life, your well being, your sanity...where does it start and where does it end...?

    I am not in a good place right now. And, I don't believe, beliefs are something we should not challenge...I think we should challenge beliefs...when I was a little girl I believed in my Father...L. Ron Hubbard changed all of that...because he believed in him and I did not...I saw L. Ron Hubbard far more closer and personal than my Father ever did and I did not like what I saw...

    I think Bob Minton was a good man, I think he saw something that raeled against all he believed in and wanted to change it...and what does Mike Rinder do "Something can be done about it", so do it Mike!

    I have NO faith in Marty Rathbun, I have No faith in Mike Rinder, I have NO faith in Karen de La Carriere...ALL I see are OSA operations...and I see them repeatedly. I don't see any repentence at all. They don't give a shit because they are the media!

    You think I am joking...I am NOT!

    I have been there and lived it, I do not need to joke about it! Although I do, it gives you sanity

    Tell me, Mr. Lerma, how do you come to terms with what you have lived with?

    Don't give me the ten steps, just give me piece of mind...

    1. My heroes are Gerry Armstrong, Arnie Lerma, Paulette Cooper and a little old lady called Ida Camburn, who fought against all the odds. Another two that comes to mind is Nan and my own Nana and another one is Bob Minton. These people paved the way for all of you, including myself...

  3. Interview by Bert Leahy, for some perspective:
    On FB:

    Re Esmb, a LESSON on disinformation:
    Sharone, this is the best I can do, turn it into a lesson plan, it is unfortunate that more people have not learned from this.
    But... on FB, some folks noticed there was something interesting being said and it turned in a radio interview (was not just on blog radio)

    Re come to terms... everything is a lesson. I feel I have gained the knowledge I once thought $cientology held, from dissecting the methods used by Hubbard to fool me in the beginning... and THAT is priceless.I am working on my book...slow and steady...

    Thank you Sharone for being exactly as you are.(note)

    Arnie Lerma Exposing the CON since 1993

    PS: Lenin's quote comes to mind, it almost seems what we see is the bright idea of a clever PR company to dilute the movement with borderline pathological characters in order to demonize critics in general.

    'The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves.' Lenin

    PPS: Whenever I would ask my mother what should I do? to deal with some challenge her only advice was "Just be yourself".


    "From the very moment a con artist targets you, his entire arsenal of
    psychological manipulation is brought into play. You are moved from a
    position of control to one of no control over anything at all. The
    con artist moves into the position of supreme power, regardless of how
    powerful you may be in real life.

    How can this be? Because you are the only character in the play who
    hasn't a clue as to what is really happening. No one has given you a
    script to follow. The only choice given you is to react to what the
    other players are saying and doing.

    Reality is gone, you just doesn't know it - your real world has been
    completely and effectively replaced with that of the con artist and
    his cronies. Smoke and mirrors. "

  5. This site provides a broader overview and history of mind control in layman's terms.
    sorce is this

    "War is the greatest injustice. We are not fighting the culprits. Those who pay, who incite, who use the media to make people turn against each other - this is who we should fight against." - Alexey Mozgovoy, commander of the "Ghost" brigade, killed May 23, 2015

    1. Alexey Mozgovoy Was the Face of the Left Revolution in › Terror

      Thank you Arnie, for your insights. I will be following the links. Hope you are well. x

  6. Sharone, You are welcome, and yes I am reeling in the years, and aching more as if in anticipation of a coming storm. I thought I'd tender this gift for thinking to you:

    Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm. But the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it. Because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves. - T. S. Eliot

  7. Funnily enough, I have been thinking about you for the last few days and especially today. I got sent something about you a few days ago and it made me angry...and very sad...

    AnonyMary & Churchill at the Getting Clear Conference, page 6

    You, are quite right, they probably don't mean to harm,but they do.

    For now, I will leave you with this...It made a great impact on me, and one that I feel very strongly about...don't expect others to do what you are not prepared to do...I know you don't
    India's 'Untouchables' Are Still Being Forced to Collect ...

    I will be in touch soon.

  8. I notice this has now been put in the Grudge section of ESMB where only members can access...AnonyMary & Churchill at the Getting Clear Conference, page 6. I will cover this at a later date. I have the offending posts...


  10. Replies
    1. Found it, Thanks. Will add it to the bottom of the post.